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Your Mortgage Rate and the Closing Costs Associated with It

by Victor Burek -
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Yesterday, mortgage backed securities (MBS) traded in a tight range and closed near the previous day's closing price levels.   This stability will allow lenders to offer par 30 year conventional mortgages ranging from 4.625% to 4.875% depending on individual borrower risk profile characteristics

 

To qualify for a par interest rate requires a FICO score of at least 740 with a loan amount to home value ratio of 80% or less. This also assumes that borrowers pay all closing costs which includes 1 origination/discount point or broker charge(how mortgage bankers and brokers earn income.  I bring up this topic due to a recent conversation I had with a reader.  This reader sent me an email indicating they had been quoted a specific zero point mortgage rate, as is the usual reaction to such a statement I requested this reader to please send me their good faith estimate.  Sure enough, there were no points; however, upon further inspection I noticed a 1.00% closing cost labeled "broker fee"(see example below). So although the "fees" were not described as "points", this client was still paying the same amount. Consumers beware of how lenders structure your good faith estimates.  

 

 

That said, I am not bashing the added cost of origination or discount points but I would like to point out that these "points" and "fees" should go towards a lower rate.   I encourage everyone who is refinancing to request a zero point/fee mortgage rate and a 1 point mortgage rate.  If you are staying in the home for more than 3 years, paying the point and securing a lower rate will pay for itself and more than likely be the better deal.  You are able to determine this breakeven point by calculating the difference between the two mortgage payments (0 point vs. 1 point quote) and comparing to the cost of the "points/fees" that you pay. If you save $100/per month divide that savings by the dollar amount of points you pay to determine the number of months it will take to make up the cost of "points/fees". If you believe you will be in house for a period longer than it takes to recover this cost...I would suggest paying the point in favor of a lower rate.

 

I also had a reader comment yesterday about an offer they received on a refinance where the lender was “absorbing the costs”.  Well, it appears that way on the surface when you get a good faith estimate that shows the lender paying all the fees; however, the rate they were quoted was abnormally higher than the average market par rate.  So, is the lender absorbing the costs, or is this consumer paying the costs via a higher interest rate?  If the latter is the case the consumer will pay more money in the long run vs. paying costs up front. Has this concept been presented to you by your mortgage professional? Have you experienced this dilemma. Should you pay additional closing costs?  Should you pay a point?  ? As always I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject. 

 

I have written in the past about lenders controlling their pipeline of business by increasing borrowing costs for no apparent reason.  It was reported yesterday by a fellow mortgage professional of one lender doing this.  With the price action of MBS yesterday, there was no reason for any lender to worsen pricing but that is what happened.  As lenders start to offer better rates, many consumers jump off the fence and lock their rate.  Once the lender gets enough locks, they start to increase rates to slow down their volume of new originations. 

 

Onto the data for the day.

 

First we got the release of housing starts which showed construction of new homes declining sharply last month to an annual pace of 510,000 from February’s annual pace of 583,000.  This is the second lowest reading on record.   Economists had expected this report to show an annual pace of 570,000.  This report is a positive for MBS and lower mortgage rates but not much reaction from the markets.  With a glut of housing on the market, I am happy to see this come in lower.  Less new homes being built will help the supply of existing homes to move lower.

 

Next, the Labor department released the Weekly Claims for Unemployment Insurance.  This report shows the number of Americans who have filed for unemployment insurance for the first time each week.   We got mixed data with the weekly jobless claims unexpectedly improving from an estimate of 658,000 to 610,000 which is down 53,000 from the prior week.  The continuing claims which gives us a reading of the number of Americans that continue to file for unemployment insurance set another record at 6,022,000.  This is the 13th week in a row that this has set a new record high reading and continues to show that unemployed Americans are having a difficult time securing a new job. This suggests that the worst has yet to come in regards to unemployment data.

 

Lastly, we received the monthly Philadelphia Fed Survey which gives investors insight into the business conditions around the Philadelphia region.  Expectations were for a reading of -30.2 following last months -35.0.  Readings below 0 indicate a contracting economy and readings above 0 indicate an expanding or growing economy.   The report came in better than expectations at -24.4 but still shows the manufacturing segment of our economy contracting.  On the news, there was no reaction from the markets.

 

So far this morning, MBS have continued to trade in a tight range. Early reports from fellow mortgage professionals show at least 1 lender offering 4.5% as par today.  For intraday updates on the status of the markets, please check out the MBS Commentary.


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on
Good advice Vic, refi's are nothing more than a math equation in which the options in both senarios, sometimes three, should be presented to the client. Educate them and allow them to make the decision. I find there is far less to no fallout.
on
Awesome post Vic. It's about time a credible source explained to borrowers this information from a nutural standpoint. Keep up the good work. You should also mention that a diservice is being done to the borrower if the discount point is being charged under a different "name" as it is the only fee that is tax deductible to the borrower.
on
Consumers beware! A lot of what you hear is not what you believe it is; you are hearing what you want to hear, not what is being told to you. "We have no closing costs," could mean that the lender is not charging you fees, but you may be receiving a higher rate and you may still be charged 3rd party fees such as title, taxes, and government fees. Why do some originators do this? Simply to get you started in the process and they feel that enough people will choose to complete the process to save the money they spent on an appraisal or application fee. Great post Vic!
on
This is great food for thought. I have had two GFE's given to me about a month ago and I thought both were a little suspect. We are going to be in the lock period here in about 3 weeks and when I go back to the lenders, I am going to use this advice and ask for both zero point and 1 point to make sure everything is in check and hopefully make an informed decision. Great information.
on
Great post Vic. I actually have a client that read this post(I recommended this site). 740+ credit, 80% LTV; however, he is taking cash out up to the 80%. Borrowers need to be aware that additional costs may apply when taking cash out depending on their loan-to-value.
on
Victor, you mention the "abnormally higher than average market rate" I was receiving. I have called so many different lenders and they have all told me the same thing, 5.0% "zero costs" on the FHA streamline. It wasn't until last weekend that CW sent me a quote at 4.875 "zero cost." What is the average market rate for an 30yr FHA streamline refi?
on
Good post Vic, I like to see that you're addressing this issue. As a loan officer, I see a lot of other GFE's that are sometimes so off on costs it's absurd. Of course, the borrower is goingt to gravitate towards that loan as their benchmark for comparison and no one is going to be able to match or beat that offer - the old bait and switch. I still sell a lot of deals against those. I find the best tool is educating your borrowers on the qualifications of their loans, what adjustments they take and how the whole market works. Smart borrowers will go with the LO they feel is the most honest and can provide them the education they need to understand refinancing...Let that discredit the guy way out in left field rather than attacking him yourself, you'll get more deals out of it.
on
Yesterday's question - why was I on the fence? 3 reasons. Being greedy/unrealistic - I wanted 4% w/ under 2 pts. Fear - rates would drop after I locked. Not wanting to pay an extra .25 to .5 pt - so many slow lenders were charging for required longer lock periods. What got me off the fence? Becoming informed (by your awesome website) - getting 4.5% @ 1.375 ($400+ monthly savings) was a great rate that lets me sleep. Your argument that the sooner you close, the sooner your save $. By waiting/delaying 3 months I missed saving $1,200 = .25 pts on my loan. We close in 4 days. Today's question - I paid a point b/c with such low rates, break even points are faster and I rolled closing costs into the loan so they didn't "hurt" as much. Every borrower should go over GFE's with a microscope and the cheapest lender/broker is often not the cheapest due to relabeled fees. My best advice get referrals for broker/lenders with track records. I avoided several after checking the Better Business Bureau website and seeing piles of complaints. Typed Amerisave into the BBB website, then went to a broker with a 30 year track record with no BBB complaints. Victor, your website is so helpful.
on
Victor, When helping a borrower wih a FHA loan the the rate will be higher then PAR. the reason for that is the originator must pay all costs and is not allowed to charge an origination fee. Therefore the originator must take the 1% and closing costs out in the form of a rebate.
on
Scott Niklawski, I find that some clients gravitate to the biggest Liar. My critira for accepting a client is that they allow me to educate them and their must be willing to deliver my Financial Exhibit list. The few that I lose give me more time to spend with my AAA clients.
on
Great post. I go through this explanation several times a week with borrowers and it is usually received very well. I just closed on a transaction here in the Bay Area and the borrower has a daughter in Minneapolis that is in need of an experienced broker, Anybody on here have a recommendation for me that I can pass on? E-mail me at Sergei@gmwest,com. Thanks!
on
Thanks for all the compliments(except from kent). Michael, thanks for pointing that out about rates or fees are higher for cashouts. i will try to cover that soon. BSE, you are getting higher rate quotes due to you not paying costs. The lender has to make up the closing costs somehow, and they do that by giving a higher rate. Now, i am not bashing a no fee loan. If someone is staying in a home for a short period of time a no cost loan is a great option.
on
Sergi, Kent Mikkola is in MN and can help your client. YOu can get his info from his profile.
on
It seems that mortage lenders are getting "nasty" or lazy when I ask for a GFE. This is very annoying to me.
on
Howard I have experienced the same thing. I have even been laughed at for asking for a GFE. Some just don't want to give them out? In this market, I'd expect that they would work to keep your business.
on
Howard & BSE, If you are being laughed at or experiencing reluctance on part of your loan officer to provide a good faith estimate detailing the costs associated by employing him/her, I can only assume that you have never worked with them before so there is an element of untrust from the very start. With that said, this arises typically when a LO has experienced a large amount of "shoppers" and due to trumped up good faith estimates which have been outlined in this excellent post have lost clients. Although I provide GFE's for all my clients I also am up front in questioning them in regards to their loyalty and if they are shopping me. If they are I educate them on making certain that they compare apples to apples and ask them to provide my competition's good faith for review. After all I have more experience reading them then they do. Then I give them an honest evaluation. Keep in mind, not all doctors work the same, lawyers, dentists et all so one cannot expect the professional from our industry to do the same either. With that said, follow your instincts on weather you are being dupped, you have to feel comfortable with the one who is responsible to taking you to the finish line. With proper communication and execution in addition to properly discussed timelines, closing a transaction should not be the nightmare a lot of consumers have talked about. If then you are happy with the service, reward the LO with your future business and anyone else you know who might utilize their services. Then the lack of trust you are experiencing now will not be there the next time you fill out a mortgage loan application. Caution, if you shop for your mortgage like you do a car there will be times when you come across someone who will over promise and under deliver, I have seen this countless times unfortunately. Good Luck!
on
Whoa Whoa Whoa people, let's not keep basing us LO's, brokers and the like. The vast majority of us disclose properly. However, the borrower is at fault too. I am sure most of you agree that a lot of borrowers want something for nothing. "I want 4.0% with no points", "Why do I have to pay closing costs?" blah blah blah. The problem is that most first time refinancers never saw the costs, because when they bought the home the costs were paid by the seller. I honestly discuss costs, and my GFEs are often the same as my HUD in the end. But with all the plethora of information out there on the net, all the "no closing cost" crap out there it is setting unrealistic expectations, and commoditized our business. The cheapest is not always the best. I wish borrowers were better informed that, yes it does cost money to refinance a loan, and yes I DO have to run your credit to give you over a half a million dollars. Expectations need to be set.
on
Emmett, i agree people always want things for free, me included. What i try to do is educate my client so they understand how i make money or anyone else they work with. But over the last few years there has been many bad LO's who did take advantage of clients. Today most of them are gone which is a good thing for us professionals that are left.
on
Victor, yes I think a lot of those bad independent brokers doing loans from their home are fading fast, and most are gone. My company is a Correspondent lender, which I think will be channel of the future. FHA is requiring increased participation stipulations, and wholesale lenders are shedding brokers without certain capitlization requirements and bad funding ratios. I tell my customers that I am brutally honest, and most respect that. However, I have had plenty of clients get "sold the dream" of a pretty GFE, and no matter how hard I tell them that it is BS, they won't believe it. They can't be told the stove is hot....they have to get burnt.
on
To the customers who ask why I don't send a GFE....here is the answer: A GFE without all the facts is WORTHLESS to you. A GFE is no good unless we pull credit and have a real sense of appraised value. So many clients I talk to say "What's your rate...and send me a GFE". Like I can just pull it out of thin air without knowing anything about you, the property, your credit, your debt ratio, your escrows etc etc. Pricing is very sensitive to many factors and a full application WITH a credit pull is required to get accurate pricing.
on
? I spoke to a lender about origination fees as points and he said they would be tax deductible as points, because all there fees are seperated from the origination fee. He also said that "from my understanding, on a refinance, the points arenormally only deductable over the life of the loan. So lets say you pay 1point, they (your accountant/IRS) spread that out over the 30 year life ofyour mortgage. I would think that the point is tax deductible that year you refinanced not on the life of the loan. Anyone know the correct answer?
on
First and foremost. Great Post. As a Sales manager my loan officer and myself are asked this very question every day. The explanation you gave is depicts the truth. As far as Ed in the post above me, I am a former accountant and you are correct. Points are deductible on your taxes and as you suspect they are also allowable the year you incurredt the cost.
on
For refinaces, the cost of the point is spread over the life of the loan. Assuming a 30 year refi (360 months), and your first payment is in July, you can take deduct 1/60 (6/360) of the points in 2009. Then each year after, you can deduct 1/30 of the points. For a purchase you can deduct the ENTIRE cost of the POINTS during the purchase year.
on
RE: Emmett - I hear you on your points - if I may make a comment on your latest post RE: the GFE - customers are not always well-informed - remember that they are being hit with flowery media stories about how easy it is to refinance and these great 4% rates etc... it's fluff knowledge - if you take the time to quickly explain what you wrote in your last post concerning the need for detailed information from the customer prior to providing a GFE, most rational potential customers will understand that and appreciate that vs. being lied to or 'ballparked estimated' - I think that most of the consumers are wary of any additional fees and need to be gently explained to as to the mathematics of discount points etc... remember that folks do not (generally) learn about personal finance mathetmatics, calculations etc... in their schooling - unfortunately, this falls on the broker/loan officer to educate. Of course you will loose some people who do not want to take the time to use their brain and make a rational decision - quite frankly - you might be better off because that behavior may continue throughout the process.... my 10 cents.
on
The correct answer Ed is the origination fee is able to be spread out over the life of the loan, and/or until it is refinanced. Emmet, I agree, it is a lot more difficult give them the GFE these days, especially shoppers (see above), with that said, handled properly you can really educate and build their trust in the education process. There are those who must be burnt first, as you say. If they don't provide me the information necessary to complete the GFE then I simply tell them it cannot be provided. If they don't understand that then they are probably another lender spying or too ignorant to be buying a home anyway.
on
Well stated Florida AE
on
Vic, Excellent post - have been lurking since you helped me with my refi in Jan. I am sitting pretty set for life, following all the info/advice in this post. I think this should be the first post in a "Knowledge Base" for the borrowers' Mortgage Rate Watch blog like the MBS commentary has. Ed, from what I understand, the lender is right. Refi's don't allow for points to be deducted all at once like you can on a purchase. Personally I think its lame. I mean come on, who wants to amortize/deduct a couple thousand bucks over thirty years? What a PITA. I guess its a disincentive to keep someone from refinancing the same house every year but rather purchase a new one every year.
on
Victor, Look what great discussions you trigger when you ask your readers a question. I've learned so much in the past 2 days discussions. Never knew that GFE's were such moving targets w/o info about the borrower. I admit I was guilty of relentless GFE shopping until I realized I'm better off committing to a reputable broker. Once he saw I was committed, he worked to save me money. We got 30 day lock points instead of 60 day b/c he had ALL paperwork in hand so lender knew were serious. He also worked hard to float me down after rates dropped and he pulled it off lowering my rate by .375 & pts .375. I recommend finding a good broker or LO who you trust. They will save you time & hassles shopping. I am willing to pay more for great service.
on
I would answer the tax deduction question, but i think it got covered. However, if you sell your house in 5 years, than that year you can deduct the remaining balance of the origination. Also, Emmett above makes an excellent point about getting a GFE without the LO taking the application and running credit. Until you have a full application, your credit is ran, and your information is verified, any GFE you get is only worth the paper it is written on. Again, great point Emmett.
on
TWO FRO TWO VIC....... WHAT IS UP YOUR SLEEVE FOR TOMORROW? :o)
on
thanks Jeffrey, and not sure. i need to address HVCC at some point. Do you have any suggestions?
on
HVCC could take you a week or more covered properly but the consumer needs to know just how much it will change the way things are done. Most of my clients are past clients or referrals from 12 years. I have never charged a deposit and I don't see anyway around it now, and, it might not be up to me anyway. I am not a broker although I can if need to so it will not make the impact on me than it will on other brethren. Could always cover DU REFI PLUS and the mysteries surrounding it. Most client's I have looked up, over 50, and researched, Fannie or Freddie are coming up Freddie so May 1 is the date. What the consumer is going to see with the plethora of seconds and piggybacks out there is the inability to subordinate and/or the time it will take to get an answer and the conditions surrounding it. Some it will benefit but I am afraid not near as much as our friends in Washington DC hope it will.
on
Howard and GSE, Are you simply asking for the GFE or have you given the broker/lender a complete application including your SSN and birthdate to allow them to pull credit? I know that I do not provide a GFE without having an application. If I don't have the information that I need to provide you with a true estimate of the program I believe you qualify for, I don't believe it is in your best interest to provide you with "the best case scenario" or "the best guess" based on speculation.
on
Filled out an application on February 9th for the two properties I own, and paid my $100 application fee. My Loan Company called me in March (the day the rates dropped due to the MBS buy-up) and asked if they should lock me at 0 points, 4.625 %. I said yes. I asked and asked for a rate lock statement, just got one this week (a MONTH later) and it actually said 4.625 and 0.25 points. Which made me VERY mad, but was a good rate anyway so I bit my tongue. My lock expires on May 4. I get a note (mass emailing) from my Loan Company saying "oh, sorry, I know that most of you started this process in January or February, but you still haven't come out of underwriting. We'll extend your locks and honor your rates, and we're really sorry. We're trying to hire more people." OK, now, I appreciate the sentiment....and that they're extending my lock, but I'm livid. I am losing $20 per day that this loan doesn't close due to the poor sevice of this bank. Large national bank, you'd think they could hire a few people to get this moving. I feel like a complete hostage. I'm at the point where I'd like to go elsewhere and start the process over, even if it will cost me ....just for the principal of the thing! How can this be right?
on
A question: Loan Company also said that one option I have is to withdraw my loan application and recreate it as a new file because according to RESPA, we're guaranteed to be decisioned within 30 days. Can someone explain that in layman's terms? What's RESPA, and why would I be guaranteed 30 days if I reapply, when it's taking 90 days or more on this application?
on
T.K.- Imagine how ticked you'd be if they said they weren't honoring your lock! You aren't losing $20/day--your loan hasn't been approved yet. Unfortunately some lenders didn't staff up in a timely manner. This is another reason why using a broker is advantageous---Brokers now their Lenders and turntimes. Good luck. Nice post Vic!
on
Well Bob V.G., I consider the time from December to Februrary that it took me to apply for a loan "lost dollars" because I could have been reaping the rewards, just as I consider the time it's takine the company to "approve" my loan lost dollars because I know it's ultimately going to be approved (pristine credit in the 780-800 range, my income is over $200K, mortgage is our only debt, 75-80% LTV, for both homes put together we're only borrowing $440 K) Wish I would have gone with a broker. This site has bee a wonderful education for me.
on
Jeffrey I have heard that there is a stipulation for subordinating seconds on these DURP loans. I need to research it but here is what I have heard. if the bank holding the second has taken TARP money then they are required to subordinate point blank period. I need to find it in writing but that would be a good thing. I have lost several loans due to banks not wanting to subordinate second liens to anything over 80% CLTV.....anyone else hear this?
on
Application on 2/9/09 Appraisal came back from appraiser on 2/23/09 We are still not out of underwriting! I asked how long it would take, I'm told that they don't know.
on
Mike King wrote: It's about time a credible source explained to borrowers this information from a natural standpoint. I don't know what "natural standpoint" means but the Mortgage Professor has been 'splaining it it for years through his syndicated column and his website. He even started an organization whose members vow to be completely upfront and of which I am a founding member. Upfront Mortgage Brokers http://tinyurl.com/2jct
on
Bobby, I have run into the same thing about the subordinations. Wachovia just did that for a loan they originally wrote at 90%, wouldn't subordinate it now above 80%. I'd like to know about the TARP thing as well, if you find that information let us know.....
on
Regarding non-subordination of 2nds, you can add First Horizon Tennesse to the list. Their current policy is not to subordinate anything above 90% CLTV. Is there a thread specifically addressing the "105, HARP" refis?
on
I would like to add, borrowers need to educate themselves or understand that when you hear 4.5% rate on conventional financing lenders are adding some MAJOR adjustments if you don't FIT into their little box. If you have a 740 + score, 75% LTV and no cashout you can get 4.5% at par but if your score is a 680 and your LTV is 80%, there is a 1.5% adjustment, cashout with that score, add another 1.375% adjustment. Lenders have really altered their criteria and rely to much on credit scoring. I wish they could determine a borrowers strength by LOOKING at the file like they did in the old days.
on
I would like to add... borrowers need to stop listening to their local news correspondent for interest rate advice and start listening to their broker... news correspondents will not help you, they don't understand what they are talking about, and their news is always out dated regarding interest rates - consumers - do not listen to them.
on
Having read all of the foregoing posts, I agree that everyone is telling the absolute truth --- from where individual stands. Unfortunately, none of the posters stand where the lender is standing and most of them don't fully understand the dynamics of loan pricing. Here is ethical pricing in a nutshell: The Second Marketing Division of the lender determines how to hedge pricing in order to maintain a reasonable yield spread on the loans the lender originates and sells to investors like Fannie and Freddie. They monitor a variety of variables, such as what the Fed is doing, what the stock market is doing, what consumer reactions are, what global economics are doing and even what that little guy in North Korea is doing with his rockets. Any of these variables can FORCE Second Marketing to adjust the amount of points required for the borrower to get a certain rate at no points, or par. Adjusting this par can take place any time and often several times a day. The par rate for the individual loan is then adjusted again, according to specific loan parameters, such as cash-out, non-owner occupancy, LTV, Credit Score, Property State, Declining Market status and a host of other variables that mortgage loans are heir to. At this point, pricing becomes very specific to the individual loan because every loan, and I mean EVERY loan is different. Even if a borrower buys two properties that are identical, the second property purchased is going to have different pricing than the first because the debt ratio is going to change. I hope that those of you reading this are beginning to appreciate the complexities of mortgage pricing. Of course, there has always been room for abuses in mortgage lending, but at the lender's end the numbers must be perfect or the transaction does not balance and the loan will not close. I work a lock desk and if I make a mistake in pricing a loan (we all make mistakes at times), the sytem FORCES me to correct it before the loan closes. If you are looking for unethical behavior with regard to pricing, look to the borrower, agent or loan officer. Origination points apply to refinances and are a fee. They can be reduced to adjust points and are tax deductable over the life of the loan. Discount points are applied to both refis and purchases. They are used to buy down the rate. That's why they are called DISCOUNT points. The lower the rate, the more must be paid in points to get the lower rates. Discount points and Origination points are added together to get the total points required to buy a specific rate for that specific loan. Discount rates are prepaid interest and are tax deductable in year year paid. Almost any loan can be adjusted down to no points. Of course, this means the rate will be increased. That's the trade-off. Some loans, such as investor properties and low FICO loans are going to require some points and will never go to no points. You can never learn enough about pricing. I've been at it for 12 years and learn something every day.......