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Friday 3/6…Unemployment Rises

by Victor Burek -
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Yesterday, mortgage backed securities had a pretty decent rally following treasuries to lower yields.  We improved yesterday by about .50 in discount which should put lenders par 30 year fixed rate conventional mortgages anywhere from 4.75% to 5% depending on the lender.  Some lenders are offering incentives for clients with over 800 scores and lower loan to values that will put par rates as low as 4.625% today.   Most lenders repriced to the better yesterday but did not pass along all the improvements. 

This morning we got the release of the Non Farm payrolls and it wasn’t pretty.  To read the actual release CLICK ME.  Economists where expecting 648,000 jobs lost and the actual number was slightly worse at 651,000 jobs lost.  December’s numbers where revised worse from 577,000 lost to 681,000 lost, and January’s numbers where also revised worse from 598,000 to 655,000.  Since December of 2007, our economy has lost 4.4 million jobs which is the most since 1949.  With the revisions, the unemployment rate increased to 8.1% which is the highest since 1983 while economists where expecting the jobless rate to come in at 7.9%.  The jobs outlook continues to look very grim.  Usually this is a positive for mortgage backed securities; however, after the release mbs have sold off a little.  With so many people out of work it will be hard for people to make mortgage payments or buy new homes so sometimes data that is usually positive actually hurts.   We have seen a lot of this in recent months which makes the job of predicting rate movements much more difficult.   As investors digest this data it will be interesting to see how the market reacts.  The stock market after a pretty big drop yesterday has just opened in positive territory.  If we have a big rally in the stock market, that will add pressure on mbs to move lower in price which causes rates to increase. 

Early reports from fellow mortgage professionals show that lenders have passed along some improvements.  Today may be a good day to lock loans especially if you are closing this month.  Rates move in a sideways S pattern.  They move higher, top out then go lower and bottom out and repeats.  It seems the top of the range has been about 5% and the bottom around 4.5%.  We are at or near the bottom and yes rates can go lower, however, they can also move higher.  Each time we have approached the 4.5% range, we have been turned back and rates have moved higher.  Everyone wants to lock when rates are at the bottom but the problem with that is you don’t know you are at the bottom until it is passed then it is too late.  I have said many times before that anytime you can lock a 30 year fixed rate mortgage under 5% that is a good move.   Not sure how everyone else feels, but thank goodness it’s Friday!!!!!


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COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!
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Victor, thanks so much for putting this blog together. It's been a priceless resource as I've been going through the REFI process the last 60 days. Monday is my last day to lock and I was hoping you could help me understand the LLPA adjustment from Fannie Mae. I have credit >740, refinancing my $325k condo (4 stories, 52 units) in Chicago. I've been told I need 75% LTV to get the best rate but after the update yesterday it looks I might get away with 80%LTV (and avoid PMI). I called my potential REFI lender today (Schwab) and they said 75% is 5.25% and 80% is 5.56%, 0pts. They said they follow Fannie Mae rules, any thoughts as to why there is still a rate discrepancy? I'm wondering if the LLPA rules haven't taken affect there yet and if I should wait till Monday (which is my last day to lock). Again thanks for the awesome posts.
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Victor, when you say the most since 1949, do you mean percentage or total jobs lost?
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I'm in NY and our rates are higher so i need help with my refi what to do with the ups and downs in rates is it better to refi with current lender sins i dont have to pay the tax again ?
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John, total jobs lost. I visagie, what tax are you speaking about? Michael, the new LLPA adjustments start i believe next month.
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Michael, There are some hits (discounts) associated with condo properties. Sounds like a great rate if your not paying discount points at closing. Ask your lender for options on paying points and how they would affect your rate. From there - make a decision and lock it and move forward.
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the state tax stamps (i Think)
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Victor, Your right the new LLPA starts April Fool's Day.
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Sounds good. Thanks Victor and Jim. I called and if I pay 0.375 pts I get a rate of 5%. I'll probably jump on it. My current rate is 6.2%. (All 30 yr fixed).
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Looking at VA rates, are 4.5% with 2.375 points or 4.875% with 1.375 points good deals? If so which one should I take? These are quotes for a $155,000 loan using the VA IRRRL refinance program.
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My current rate is 5.75 and would like to get a rate of 4.5 with 1.5 points, do you think we will get there?
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In my opinion, today is a good day to lock, and I am recommending that to my clients: Lock! Hoping for 4.5 is risky. Rates go up faster than they come down. Rates are down today! It's Friday--cheers!
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We locked in today at 4.5%, no points, 15 yrs! Praise the Lord! Thank you so much for this blog and passing on your knowledge to those of us who have no idea! I can honestly say I have learned tons since reading this post for the last couple of weeks while trying to decide when to lock in a rate! Thanks again Victor!
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Someone is offering me 4.625% with 1 pt on 30 yrs. fixed. Should I lock it ?
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K V - Lock it and be quite pleased with yourself.
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I'm in Philly, PA and building a new home- we won't be closing until May 1 at the earliest, so should we try to lock something down now or wait? We're looking at an FHA, but may be able to swing the down payment to get a conventional (but won't be able to avoid PMI). Any suggestions?
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From my top lender... 4.5% you can get by paying a point. KV Lock it. Meghan, Im also from Philly... Your best bet would be to wait it out. FHA rates have not been moving as bad as conventional.
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A great big thank you to Adam, Victor, and the rest of the MND family. I just got off the phone with our lender and was able to lock in ouor USDA loan at 5% with a quarter of a point. (Yesterday's rate was 5% with half of a point.) While I may be kicking myself if the base rate falls to 5% but 5% was our target and the $400 for the 1/4 of a point was well worth paying to get off the boat.
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I currently have 3 options. Any advice on what to do would be appreciated. We plan to be in this home at least 10-15 yrs. 30 yr fixed at 4.5 with 2 pts (when I say 2 pts it is 1% origination fee and 1 pt); 30 yr fixed at 4.625 with 1.5 pts; 30 yr fixed at 4.75 with 1.125 pts. I appreciate the insight!
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Gina what is the loan amount? That is going to be more of a determining factor than the points. Weight the savings versus the costs. Victor I think NY has a refinance tax of .25 or a half on any refinances...kind of like no over 80% cash out in Texas.....Daniel in your case it will take you 45 months to recuperate your investment in discount. Are you going to be in the house that long? Difference in payment is about $35 dollars a month....
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Thanks Bobby. The loan amt is $400k. I am leaning towards the 4.5 with the 2 pts since i am going to be here a while.
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Thanks to the advice here, I think I'll lock today. I'm in CA, loan is $417k. The question is whether to lock at 5.125 for no points or 5% for .35 point. I don't know if I'll be in the house in 3 years, so I'm hesitant to pay points, but is .35 point for a decrease in interest rate of .125 a good deal? Thanks!
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Can someone explain where the loan Level Price Adjustments figure in to my refinance. My banker is saying that they do not affect the interest rate at all. What does the -0.25% mean for 60. If this is a correct understanding, I should be seeing a reduction in my closing costs of 1/4pt due to my appraisla showing LTV
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(Sorry, guess you shouldn’t use the less than symbol as it skipped part of my post). Can someone explain where the Loan Level Price adjustments figure in to my refinance. My banker is saying that they do not affect the interest rate at all. What does the -0.25% mean for LTV below 60. I assume it is a fee applied to closing costs. Seems like I should be seeing a reduction in my closing costs of 1/4pt or $500 on a 200k loan due to my appraisal showing LTV less than 60 compared to the banks original assumption of an LTV below 80. Am I understanding this correctly.
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GINA I don't think you should pay $8,000 for 4.5%. I can do 5% with no points today. Difference in payment is $120/mo, $1,440/yr. Would take almost 6 years to begin saving money. And what if ITSNBN comes in the next few months?!!!
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Reid typically the hits are applied to the rate and pricing on the loan....either your broker made more money or you got a better rate due to the low LTV......I have not started passing the delivery fees on to my customers in the form of closing costs..it is just taken into consideration when pricing the loan...hope that helps...
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Thanks Romano - I am a rookie. What is ITSNBN?
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Gina I think your best option financially is the 4.75% with 1.125 in points...the difference in payment is $60 dollars and the difference in cost is $3,500...you are looking at 5 years before you even break even...but 4.5% is a great rate........I would run an amortization schedule and see where each one puts you in about 10 years.....
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GINA...lower rates
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Just locked a 15yr at 4.375% w/ 0 points yesterday, and they lowered their rate to 4.25% this morning Doh!
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I'm confused I thought rates would be down slightly or hold steady from yesterday based on the unemployment news and market? Why are they moving back up? Second question... I'm in VA, doing a c/o refi with an LTV of 60%. , financing 410k, credit 740+ ... with these new guidelines effective 4-1 does it benefit me to wait or should I be locking in now? Can any lender beat providents rates in va?
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Gina, once you lock in a rate and close the loan, it is unlikely to make sense to repeat the process again so keep that in mind. It is unlikely rates will ever get low enough from where they are currently that it would become worthwhile again. With that in mind, I would take the 2pts at 4.5% and be thrilled. Keep in mind if/when the economy recovers, rates are likely to rise again. In my opinion, you lock at 4.5% and smile...
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Need help?? I (credit score over 800) applied for a mortgage two weeks ago on a coop in NYC and was given the option to lock at 5% for a fixed 30 year plus I had to pay .75 in points up front for the new Fannie Mae charges on coop/condos. Now two weeks later, I go to lock and my bank tells me the rate is 5% but now with 1 point up front (which includes the Fannie Mae charges). Now it looks to me that rates went down significantly in the last 2 weeks and my bank is playing games. Am I right? Any help would be appreciated.
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Please keep in mind that the savings is not in the payment difference but in the amount of interest being paid. Lower interest rates convert to more equity over time. Remember interest is based on the current value of the loan.... GINA, the difference between 4.75% and 4.5% is a little more than $80 per month in interest. So a lower payment is actually an extra $20 a month in equity as well. Hope that helps, Break even is 3.6 yrs...
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Wow, lots of comments today. sorry that i cant respond to all, but if you can lock today under 4.75% with costs and a point, i think that is a good move. For people not closing for a month, you can probably float. Thanks to the others who are kindly answering questions. i really appreciate how everyone is very polite and is willing to give free advice. Carolyn, i do agree, i am advising my clients closing this month to lock.
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We've been offered 5.00% on a 20 year fixed mortgage with 0 points. Should we lock today or wait to see if things drop any further?
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CRAIG... not sure your post to Gina makes sense. On $400k loan, the difference between 4.75% and 4.50% is $59.84/month, $21,500/30 years. $21,500 is also the difference in total finance charge between $400k loan at 4.75% and 4.50%. Where are you getting $80, $20, equity over time, etc... Just trying to figure out what you meant. Thanks
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I have two residental rental property that I want to refinance. Both of the LTV are around 65%. The loand for each is $150K. I have 800 credit score. My broker told me for rental property, the mortgage interest rate will be at lease 1% higher than your primay house. Is that true? I am in Oregon. Can someone reply me? Thanks.
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Robert, thanks for the reply. I know my lender talked about me having to pay a +.25% Adverse Market Delivery Fee. They were also assuming by LTV would be something above 60. It would seem that if I'm getting hit with the AMD, I ought to get credit for the LLPA. I'm in a bit untrusting of my lender right now as the refused to let me lock until my appraisal was done, even though their website posts a policy stating this can be done for a non-refundable fee. I asked 4 times while applying and was told NO. Three weeks later when the appraisal came in, rates were up 625%. I applied at this credit union due to their favorable rates and feel like I’ve been baited and switch. Just want to make sure they are not taking advantage of me in any other areas.
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Chris where did you get 15yr at 4.375%? The best I'm getting here in Cincinnati, OH is 4.775% no points closing cost $2100. I'm hoping to get in at 4.5%. I'm going to tough it out and floating.
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Hi! I am floating on a 30 year fixed loan with navy credit union...right now it is 5.625% (no points, no origination fee, no PMI) and hasn't dropped yet, like other lenders....Do credit unions drop when other lenders do...dependent on the market? Victor, I emailed you directly regarding this -thank you for your responses...joined the blog so I could participate in the discussion. I am waiting for Navy FEd to drop to lock..just not sure if they will...
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Romano, the $80+ is the difference in interest. Think about the loan as an investment as well, If the interest charge is $80 less but the payment is only $60 less then there is $20 in equity being put into the home. Do the simple interest calculation... 400,000 * .0475 / 12 = 1583.33 400,000 * .045 / 12 = 1500 Thats $83.33 savings in interest. If the payment is only $60 lower, then the other $20 is going into equity.
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CRAIG- bottom line....difference in payment between 4.50 and 4.75 over life of loan is $59.84 x 360 = $21,500. That's also the difference in total finance charge between the two rates. Simple interest calculation doesn't apply here on this P&I loan amortized over 30 years.
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Romano, understood if you stay in the house for 30 years and continue to make minimum payments for the entire 30 years. Most people don't stay in the house for 30 years, and if they do, then they likely won't be paying the minimum payment for the entire 30 years. Here is another way to look at it... If you make the minimum payment of $2086.59 for the life of the loan for 30 years at 4.75% interest the total cost is $751,163.66. Now, consider making those same payments of 2086.59 when the interest rate is 4.5%. Total cost of the loan would be $707,394.98 and the loan would be paid off nearly 2 years earlier. Thats a savings of $43,768.68...or $121.58 per month if you want. So, the $3500 in extra cost today, would save you nearly $44,000 over the life of the loan. So, thats effectively investing the $3500 at 9.35% interest over the life of the loan. Questions??
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One more thing, lets assume you manage to invest to $3500 at 5% interest somewhere for the 360 months of the loan. It would be worth $15,126.67, so you save $28,642.01 over what you could have made. So over 360 months you save $79.56 per month.
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Victor, you say lock today if you can get under 4.75% w 1 pt. I'm floating on a refinance and can lock today at 5% w/0pts or 4.75% w/1pt, it sounds like it would be most prudent to take the 5% with 0pts as 1pt to buy down .25% isn't a great deal.
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Reid, if you are keeping this home for more than 4 years pay the point, if not or not sure, take the 5%.
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Thanks Victor, Yes, I'll be in the home for at least 10 year. Assume then paying 1.5pts to get down to 4.625% also makes sense. Called into lock but I guess they don't lock after 3:30p.m. :( ......so I guess I'm floating into next week.
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As a general rule of thumb, if paying 0.5 points can get you an eight reduction in interest, it is worthwhile if you will be in the home at least 4 years.
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Hi Craig, I have 5.5% 30 yr. that I just got into 13 months ago, 270,000. I have options of 4.5 with 2 pts, 4.625 with 1 pt and 4.875 with no points. I was thinking of taking $280,000 out on this refi., any suggestions are greatly appreciated
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Drew, if you are planning on staying in the home for at least 4 years I would go with the 4.625% option. Also, please check with your broker and make sure that the cash out won't affect the rate. Just go with the rule above that I posted...